The time has arrived (and no limbs were lost in the process); we’re going to spend the next two days talking about Kindred. It’s our “most popular” category Anniversary Read so I’m very interested to hear how you feel this book rates in your all-time Cannonball list.
Ground rules remain the same as they always have. For those of you who might be joining in for #CannonBookClub for the first time (hello new friends!) all are welcome. All of our topics are numbered and we ask that you refer to them below by that number to help people find the conversation topics they are looking for. If you are responding to someone else’s thoughts, please try to respond directly to them and also tell us about your own musings on the book. Also, note that while we’ve never once had to use it and don’t expect to now, comments that are not germane to our discussion or get out of hand will be deleted.
In addition to the topics here, we will also be talking on our Social Media platforms, and of course in our Facebook group, Cannonball Read Book Chat, so feel free to wander over there throughout the course of today and tomorrow.
On to the topics:
- Just what genre is this book? Does it need to be in one genre anyway?
- Why has this book never been adapted into a movie? The fantastic folks at The Dissolve were arguing for it five years ago. What are some of the issues you see preventing an adaptation?
- Butler is an evocative writer of feelings. What ones drew you out, spoke to you, made you sink more (or pull you out of) the narrative?
- Present day for the book is over 40 years ago now, and the book will celebrate its 40th anniversary of publication next summer. How would this book be different if it were written and published now?
- Dana’s actions are possibly her most powerful tool of communication. What do they tell us on the whole?
- A common thread in time-travel assumes that one should not tamper with the past; for fear that it will disrupt the present. Butler’s characters obviously ignore this theory, how does this convolute the idea of “cause and effect” in the novel?
- Grab Bag: I have thoughts and feelings I cannot fit into the above topics, meet me in the comment section.
What say you, my dear Cannonballers?
#2 – I don’t know why it hasn’t been adapted into a movie, or a mini-series (HELLO, NETFLIX!!). I can’t really see anything to prevent it from being adapted at this point. We certainly have the SFX to do the time travel bit
That article mentions Angela Bassett as Dana, but I’d be thrilled with any number of our faves: Tessa Thompson, Lupita, Janelle Monae. How can I pick?
I know! I kept waiting for the thing that was difficult to adapt to appear and it did not.
I say we ast all the favs, there are plenty of parts. Janae and Lupita look similar enough to be Alice and Dana.
The Facebook page posted a fan made movie trailer that featured scenes from 12 years a slave and I kept thinking YAS Lupita!!!
I feel like this has such a rich story that could easily translate to film. I’m surprised it hasn’t been adapted! Can we get Reese Witherspoon, Oprah and Ava Duvernay on this?
That’s why I don’t want it to be Lupita. I am sure she would be great but don’t really want all her Oscars to be for slave narratives.
I totally agree. She was amazing and she would be amazing but I don’t want that to be her “thing.”
#3 – The increasing levels of dread really got to me. Of course there’s the immediate alarm and confusion of the time jumps, but the rising dread as it goes on and on – Dana worrying about how it will affect Kevin when he’s stuck there, or wrestling with the idea that maybe she SHOULDN’T be saving this jerk, what happens if she can’t get back, all the different ways a sucky situation could get even suckier – it was really squirm-inducing, and really well done.
For this reason I was glad I read the book in two long drinks.
Yeah, reading it in a couple sittings was much better as it made things more visceral. Also, it was tough to stop in between time-travel chapters as I had to know how long her trip would last each time.
“I read the book in two long drinks” is a marvelous phrase! I’m glad I didn’t do that though – too intense!
Kevin getting stuck gave me a huge level of anxiety. Even knowing it would be better for him than Dana, I was really worried about him.
Oh, him getting stuck was terrifying to me. I was so worried they weren’t going to be reunited, and that perhaps he’d be stuck there permanently.
When Dana didn’t know where he was I had a knot in my stomach. Butler gave good resolution on that for sure.
1. I would categorize this as speculative fiction due to the time travel aspects crossed with historical fiction. However, if you flipped to a page where Dana is stuck in the antebellum South with no context, you’d most likely think it’s historical fiction. Butler is such an amazing writer that you become engrossed in the story and stop looking for genre devices quite early on in the book. Your pulled into the narrative as powerfully as Dana is pulled through time.
2. Why has this book never been adapted into a movie? Likely it has to do with who owns the rights to her books. I know that all her writing materials were donated to The Huntington Library. Beyond that, not sure if her family have opened the door to adaptations besides the graphic novel.
3. Dana and Alice’s guilt over caring for Rufus really pulled me into the book deeper and deeper. Their lives are more intertwined than they ever could have imagined. I also was really engaged with the romance between Dana and Kevin. It had its imperfections, but with the flashbacks I really connected to their relationship.
4. How would this book be different if it were written and published now? It’s hard to really say how different it would be. It’s as relevant, possibly even more so now in 2018. I would hope the recent successes of other black writers would mean Butler would be even more of a household name than she is now.
5. As Dana mentioned to Rufus, she continues to save his life and could easily do nothing. Her compassion speaks louder to him than her words. They are from two different times, it’s hard for her to overcome his upbringing when she enters his life sporadically. On the whole, her actions are a testament to her survival. She gets all sort of flack from the other slaves, whipped by Master Weylin even hurt by Rufus eventually. Her willingness to act even if it may kill her seems to be the only way to really get through to them.
6. A common thread in time-travel assumes that one should not tamper with the past; for fear that it will disrupt the present. Butler’s characters obviously ignore this theory, how does this convolute the idea of “cause and effect” in the novel?
Dana does her best to not tell any of them she is related to Alice and Rufus. I think that was Butler’s way of saying don’t totally wreck the past with information from the future. However, Kevin spills all sorts of history to Rufus, but it doesn’t do much good as most people in the South weren’t that educated. I think the idea of cause and effect is the crux of a time travel tale. Would Dana exists without her having gone back in time? Likely not as she helped Rufus get closer to Alice. The past and future were always intertwined in this book it seems.
7. The graphic novel is excellent and really does capture the full narrative. If you loved the original novel, I highly recommend! I can’t wait to read more of Octavia E. Butler’s oeuvre. Kindred was really fantastic!
#6 – I had that thought, too, that Dana was pretty free with future info, but didn’t tell anybody her personal connection, as a way to walk that paradox line. I’m glad we never had to spend time in Rufus’s head, but I do wonder what he thought was going on. Did he think Dana was his guardian angel? Why would she suddenly appear just to save his life? I thought it was another interesting sign of their time, that they didn’t have the luxury or space to be super-curious about anything weird.
Honestly, to me it’s more literary fiction or maybe magic realism? I know it sometimes gets classified as sci-fi, and i think that is people choosing an easy category based on everything else Butler has written. But, no one classified The Time Traveler’s Wife as sci-fi and I think this has more in common with that type of story (in fact, I think TTTW actually tried to throw in a whole weird gene explanation, making it more science based!)
I think I’d go with magical realism too. I never got a sci-fi feel from it.
To me, magical realism is more a device that can be within any genre, not a genre of itself. But I suppose same could be said of time travel.
As for the Time Traveller’s wife, I would categorize it as a romance novel with sci-fi elements.
I remember now in the library, they categorized Kindred in both Sci Fi, Classics (where I actually found it) and Black Lit.
Hmm. I wonder where it is shelved in my library. I get everything on ILL so it’s already at the desk for me. An interesting query.
#3. Carrie’s appraisal of those around her, and her ability to communicate it (especially with Nigel) worked wonders for me. WHile Alice and Dana’s tumultuous, intertwined relationship is one of the spines of this book, the simplicity and clarity of the understanding that Carrie brought to her world and her relationships pulled at me the most.
4 Present day for the book is over 40 years ago now, and the book will celebrate its 40th anniversary of publication next summer. How would this book be different if it were written and published now?
Dana was so shocked and outraged at the treatment of slaves, the casual use of the N word and the blind eye most white people, even sympathetic ones, turned to slavery… but I almost feel like a black woman from 2018 would be more prepared? Our society is so backasswards right now that I think it would take less to shock a modern black woman. They deal with so much crap these days I don’t think anything could surprise them in the racism front but the lack of technology would probably be more stark. I mean, Dana hated being without a toothbrush can you imagine a modern 20 something spending 8 months without her cellphone? How helpful could Google have been back then!!!
6 A common thread in time-travel assumes that one should not tamper with the past; for fear that it will disrupt the present. Butler’s characters obviously ignore this theory, how does this convolute the idea of “cause and effect” in the novel? I think that if Dana had been more aware of her history then she would possibly have been more careful but it didn’t seem like she knew more than just needing to make sure Rufus impregnated Alice with Hagar and not much else. I’m sure that muddled other people’s future, especially those slaves she helped become literate, but she wouldn’t have known how to check in the future.
I also wondered about the slaves Kevin and her helped. Did it make the difference they were hoping? Even in those brief instances? I hope so, but how would you really know since they have to keep it a secret what they learned until living in a better environment.
I feel like the race dialogue has made strides over 1976. The conversation is deeper although the work is yet to be over. Interracial marriage isn’t 100% accepted, but it’s certainly more visible in 2018.
I took the approach that they weren’t altering history since they were always a part of it – Dana was born, that means Rufus survived all his near death experiences … maybe he would have regardless but I chose to read as they are already part of history and therefore not changing it, if that makes any sense.
Just a couple of quick comments, as I have 1.5hrs to go in the audiobook and want to finish (tonight!) before I read too many comments!
4. How would this book be different if it were written and published now?
– This thought crossed my mind as I was listening to, I think, the second jump. I wondered how the story would have dealt with cell phones. Would Dana have one on her? Would she hide it? Would it have changed the dynamic altogether if someone had found it/seen it? And that led me to think about other things, like clothing – what would someone from 1800s make of spandex? Reflective gear? Velcro?
I think we have to consider that this story works in large part because of the time in which it was written. If it were set today, would Dana have shown up with a smart watch, a macbook, green hair, piercings, tattoos….? I don’t want to suggest that 1976 was the dark ages, but I feel like that time was more organic (? not sure if I’m expressing myself well here) and lent itself to someone blending better into history.
My thoughts on this really only touch the superficial. I’ve read a few comments about how things might be different from a cultural perspective – great comments, and I look forward to following the discussion of that aspect.
I guess Dana could potentially be seen almost like an alien rather than a wayward slave from the North wearing men’s clothes.
As for the tech, maybe it would be so foreign they wouldn’t even know how to react!
Yeah, I mean we think smartphones would be crazy, but without WiFi, it’s basically just a music/picture storage device that would lose battery power quickly. Seemed like people generally accepted her “from the future story” so the smart phone may have sped that up. Plus, it would be easy enough to not be holding the smartphone when returning to the past and thus avoid that can of worms. In the ‘70s, she could have been holding on to a Walkman or some other piece of technology that would still seem advanced to 19th century.
6 Butler completely subverted this trope. Dana quickly realizes she’ll be doomed if she does nothing. She has to act to protect Rufus and, in turn, her own future and that of generations of her family.
Excellent point!
It made me wonder if Butler was postulating that Dana has always had to act, but that actions have consequences which is why its death or near death, which sends her through time.
That’s a good take on why she was transported back and forth only in life-threatening moments. I liked that she never explained why or how Dana was making the jumps, leaving her readers to think about it and decide. That shows a lot of respect for her audience.
This totally just sparked something in my mind. I think there’s definitely a connection between Dana only being able to travel back to the present when her life is in danger (acting out of survival) and all the ways she’s made to change and act while in the past, that affect her and those around her so negatively (out of survival). All those conversations she has with Kevin and a couple of other characters about them not judging her for acting the way she needs to in order to survive.
7 Grab Bag. I’ll probably expand on these when I write my review but I have two more points I wanna see if anyone else thought of.
First of all. What did y’all think about Dana altering her present day life in order to safely travel back to the past. She quickly assumed she would go again and made plans like packing her bag with soap and Asprin plus she also stopped driving and really leaving the house at all. Luckily her journey ended after about a month of real time. What if it had been years?!
Secondly, I thought it was very short sighted of Weylin to threatened to try and sell Dana. He knew she just upped and disappeared randomly. Wouldn’t it be bad for business to sell a slave who evaporated the first time you tried to discipline her? Not run away. Evaporate. Plus whenever she was called back she would appear at her previous plantation. If the person she was sold to caught wind of that wouldnt they feel like Weylin stole their “property?”
I suppose it just goes to show a lot of Weylin’s talk was idle threats…
I thought that Weylin couldn’t think of worse threats. He was not portrayed as a creative man.
Dana’s acceptance and planning struck me as smart. I was, I can admit, surprised that she thought of all the ways she might die in transit and decided not to get in a car. It just didn’t occur to me. I think her diligence, and Butlers portrayal of it, sold her character for me.
Dana’s forward planning and making sure she had useful supplies nearby (and adjusting what she needed after each trip) really impressed me. The whole premise of her being sucked back into the past with no control and no idea when the next incident would take place is just so scary, and the fact that she was able to be logical and plan ahead in such a way – I’m not sure I would have been able to do the same.
Yes, I’m not sure I would have decided to tie a bag to myself to be prepared either.
I feel like if the slave disappeared, they’d think he/she ran away not that it was stolen. Slaves unfortunately were plentiful and not hard to buy again. :(
I’m gonna combine questions 4 and 6:
I think if Kindred were set in the 21st century that Dana would have been less likely to help Rufus live to adulthood and would instead try to establish a more positive timeline for her ancestors, despite the possibility this would alter or obliterate her own existence.
The 1970s, though a radical time of civil rights activism still relied on a very traditional understanding of human responsibility and dare I say, decorum, amongst the general public. Butler wrote Dana as reflective of that era’s values.
Dana, by being in an interracial relationship would have experienced some similar bigotry and discrimination in her own time, and may have had more compassion and understanding for how slaves dealt with their situations than a woman more used to current-day norms.
I don’t think 1970s Dana would ever consider not helping Rufus stay safe, and was not motivated so much to save her future self, but to save her relatives and ancestors from an even more miserable existence.
It would probably be very hard to write Dana as a modern woman of color without expecting that she would bring a more proactive sensibility with her on her time travels, which would potentially be an even more interesting, but very, very different story.
I agree there was more stigma with interracial relationships in the 70s, however in many parts of the US, there is still more discrimination than you ‘d expect. Especially with our current president. :(
Was anybody else bothered by the age difference? Why did Butler make Kevin 12 years older than Dana, and then add in another five years when he got stuck? Why not just make them closer in age to start with? Small thing, I know…I just wondered if there had been a plan behind it.
That age difference definitely could have gotten weird, and added another power dynamic so I liked that it didn’t.
I wonder if part of it was because Kevin being older and thus having had more time to write his books and get established was an easy way to justify their financial independence- Dana could stay home when she had thought time travel might interfere with real life rather than having to go to work since she would still need to income in her present.
Also, I think it helped give him more authority in the past. If he had been too young, Weylin would have ignored him even more.
Same thought on the past at exactly the same time!
Good point about the present, too, makes sense. IIRC Kevin’s family wasn’t crazy about Dana, and if he’d been younger, he may have been more likely to give in to pressure from them and others to not marry someone from another race.
I can imagine Kevin being older made him more respectable in Weylin’s eyes so that Weylin was less likely to interfere, but I’ve no idea if that’s why Butler made that choice.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think I was just on high alert about squickiness because that’s what bothered me so much about Fledgling: that older guy/young girl grossness.
I think the fact that Kevin’s hair was prematurely grey would also have helped to give him added authority in the past. The age difference and power dynamic could have bothered me more, but it didn’t actually play as him using his age and experience to dominate Dana much.
7 grab bag question
What do you think happened after the book ended? That’s something I keep going back to. Could their relationship survive all of that trauma? They both had to be completely changed by their experiences, so how did that affect each of their personal and professional lives?
Either their shared experience made their relationship stronger, and made it more likely for them to stick together or the trauma would get to much and split them apart. I’m honestly not sure. The ending was absolutely ambiguous, I thought – there was no clear-cut “happy ending” for them.
I definitely feel it impacted their writer careers. I’m not sure if Kevin would have continued down that path. As for their relationship, I would hope they stayed together. Butler hinted that they shared a secret only they would know. I felt the trip to Maryland was their way of getting some closure with the past.
I definitely think they stay together. They are the only two people who could understand each other now. Also, it makes the most sense thematically, with the reconciliation Dana was trying to make the entire book, between the white half of her life (Kevin, her “white demeanor” that the other people in the past respond so negatively to, her relationship with Kevin (that is still a problem in 1976) and the black.
#3: So this was my second time through, and two things struck me on this read. I mean, other than that it was more difficult to get through it this time because I knew what was coming, and everything was twice as agonizing because of that. When I didn’t know what was going to happen, the feeling of finding out “what happens next” pulled me through. But this time I kept having to put it down because every new terrible thing just made me dread the next terrible thing.
But anyway, that ties in to my point here, which is that I think what really makes this book so compelling and insightful is all the little details she gets right, all the little feelings Dana has that she wasn’t expecting, the ways that slavery and being in that position makes her feel. I feel like Butler really imagined what it would be like, all the implications a situation like that might have on your emotions, and then put it all on the page.
Grab Bag: I have thoughts and feelings I cannot fit into the above topics, meet me in the comment section.
#7: I want to talk about Rufus. This time around it really seemed to me like Rufus from beginning to end was Butler’s way of saying, look: this is what being alive in times and social systems like this can do to a person. And because of her perspective, not just being from the future, but having it occur in a compressed time frame for her, over the space of a year or so, it was like watching that process happen in fast forward. She could see the differences each time she came back.
I was also thinking about the title in relation to this. I think part of what Butler was doing with this book, and especially in making Kevin white, is trying to reconcile things that seem impossible to reconcile. Dana isn’t kin to just the slaves in 1819+. Her history isn’t just with Alice and her family. It’s also with Rufus and his.
I love when titles have multiple meanings. There’s the dichotomy you mention, of both Rufus and Alice being kin to Dana, but there’s also the use in phrases such as “kindred spirits”. Early in the book Dana refers to Kevin as kindred, that they are made of the same stuff, are the same people. It kept me on the lookout for other ways characters were kindred to Dana (not that the title shouldn’t have done that already) but I was struck again and again at the similarities between Dana and those around her. Butler didn’t let any of her characters off easy.